Curse

the_jos · Jul 17, 2007, 04:41 PM // 16:41

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There is a time/opportunity cost in this game associated with making potential buyers aware that you have an item that they might wish to buy.

Ok, understand that one now.
Agree on that point

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Honestly, I think you underestimate intractable character setup costs and overestimate the potential for cashflow resulting from playing the game "normally". The cost of doing a good job of equipping one's heroes with gear probably has gone down, true. However, the basic necessities (skills, armor) are comparatively FAR more expensive than they used to be, and the primary method with which to acquire the cash for them (basic farming) is now unavailable to the casual player that doesn't have the wherewithal for hard mode. The upshot is that it's more difficult for new players to get into the game and also more difficult for the majority of the community to accomplish basic objectives.

I'm really not going to agree on that one.
When I started playing GW, there was only Prophecies.
I was playing max-team size and it was hard to get a steady cashflow for my first character. He lived on collectors items and dropped weapons.
My second character did benefit from the collectable drops in storage that my first character did not use. I never farmed in my prophecies period.

Then there was Factions. In Factions, I made gold fast compared to Prophecies. Again with full party size and just playing storyline.
I already adapted to a playing style that each character should make enough gold for maintaining itself through the game.
In that time, I did a little VwK farming on Kephket for the green monk staff and one or two 15K Kurzik armor pieces for my monk.

Then NF came out.
I started a derv and a para there, and by just playing the storyline, questing and collecting every drop, they were both able to get 15K sunspear armor, funded themselfs, though I did use some rare crafting materials from my storage. Again played with full-size groups. They never got to Vabbi in the storyline. This is how 'fast' one made cash.
To give you an idea, when you play all the quests and missions (masters) on starter island, you have made more than enough cash for max armor at the crafter. This is excluding drops.

This way of making gold did NOT change with the introduction of loot scaling.

There is however a few things to mention that seperates me from a starting player.
I started in Prophecies and am very aware of the value of gold, which is rare there compared to Factions and NF.
I check every skill at the trainer before I buy it and if I would use it more than once. If not, I skip it and evaluate again later.
Whenever possible, I make sure to buy only the max 1.5K armor and collect the rest. I use collectors and dropped weapons as long as I cannot afford a better one (just save for it). I only buy what I need (except when I want something like 15K armor or my Elite title, but then it's just a goal and to achieve goals means work).
Older characters support newer ones.
I merch everything I don't need, ID the high-level ones (>50g at merch).
Those are things a starting player might not do and therefore he/she might be burning more gold than needed.

As you can see, there is enough gold in the game for the starting player to accomplish basic objectives (finish the game, get some decent weapons, max armor).
If not, it's the spending that needs attention, not the income

Amy Awien · Jul 17, 2007, 06:26 PM // 18:26

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Originally Posted by wetsparks

So what you are saying is instead of running around killing the same groups over and over again you run around killing all the monsters in every area to make your money, along with doing all the missions over again.

Nope, he didn't say that, you are picturing something in this specific manner to ridicule his argument, which you didn't because it only shows your lack of imagination.

If you do every thing once, every mission once, vanquish every area once, capture every elite once, etc, etc..., you'll have plenty of gold, way more then you actually need and without farming.

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Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

The equivalent in RL would be a wage cut or inflation which disproportionately increases the cost of basic necessities - those living at the edges of their means (who are disproportionately those with lower wages) feel it more.

Woohoo, from the posters here that complain about their source of income being nerfed I got the impression that they were not living on the edge, or in anyway compare to those with 'lower wages'. In fact they would have to be considered as rich and with the highest wages. 500 plat/week is not average, it is waaaaay above average. So, don't pretend to be just some poor, hard worker.

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An item that takes significant time to produce has intrinsic value, but the inefficient trading system results in many such low demand items being merched, since it isn't worth the seller's time to find a buyer at the market price.

The seller is simply asking more then the buyer would be willing to give for the item. If the product is too expensive to produce, he has chosen the wrong product to produce. The market changed, that is unfortunate for those caught in those changes, but they will adapt and find more lucrative products.

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Skill acquisition costs money. If you want to put all of the possible elite skills from a primary class on a character, it's going to run 15k-35k depending on the class.

Half of the cost comes back from the spoils when capturing the elite. The other half - and more - can be earned while questing and accumulating xp for the next skill point.

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All told you're looking at a good 60-100k to get a character fully ready.

Wait, in an RPG you gradually accumulate skills and abilities and equipment. In an RPG you don't spend X cash upfront to pop out the character of choice, ready to rock.

I don't really farm, I've made less then 20k with farming, it's so boring. But I still have 90% of the skills of my primary and original) secondary profession, as well as a wide selection of skills for my heroes.

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We're looking at a minimum bill of 60k to set up a new character,

Again, this is your problem, you want to setup a character, fully equipped and with a wide skill selection, before even starting the real game. A normal player builds a character and will accumulate the wealth to do so during normal gameplay.

When my character reached Droknar's Forge, she had enough resource to buy her own end-game armor plus runes and that of a friend. She had all the skills available to her for her primary and secondary profession, and weapons from loot and collectors. Without farming, ever.

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The upshot is that it's more difficult for new players to get into the game and also more difficult for the majority of the community to accomplish basic objectives.

This is not true, it is quite the opposite. With lower prices the new player can do more with the loot they get and will get more easily into the game, and reach the endgame with better equipment then I could two years ago. And without farming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

... As you can see, there is enough gold in the game for the starting player to accomplish basic objectives (finish the game, get some decent weapons, max armor).
If not, it's the spending that needs attention, not the income

QFT.

Destro Maniak · Jul 17, 2007, 07:37 PM // 19:37

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

1) In general, prices are down, runes are cheaper, items are cheaper.
2) Income has remained the same.

=> Casual players find it easier to buy their equipment and skills.

ad 2. Casual players do not build invincimonks for the sole purpose of solo farming. Casual players rarely, if ever, solo farm at all, since casual players normally adventure in full sized parties and as has been stated, loot scaling does not affect those.

Never, the casual player never saw 5000k, doesn't need it either. A full armor set costs 5K, add 3k for runes and 2k for dyes, that's ... 10k. Add 5k for a weapon, 5k for mods and your setup for 20k total.

Yes, I believe solo-farming was hurt. I am sorry the honest and casual solo farmer like your self got hurt by this change. Personally I feel ANet should have tried other methods to counter the farming with bots.

The things dropped in price is only high end rares and runes. Oh btw probably my keyboard was stuck when I wrote 5-00k I mean 50-100k for rares which still unreachable with casual farmin. For runes they already were so cheap. Only sup vigor dropped. AND IT WASNT A NEED. TILL IT EVEN I HAD MAJOR CAUSE 9HP DOESNT WORTHED 20K.

Destro Maniak · Jul 17, 2007, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

1) In general, prices are down, runes are cheaper, items are cheaper.
2) Income has remained the same.

=> Casual players find it easier to buy their equipment and skills.

ad 2. Casual players do not build invincimonks for the sole purpose of solo farming. Casual players rarely, if ever, solo farm at all, since casual players normally adventure in full sized parties and as has been stated, loot scaling does not affect those.

Never, the casual player never saw 5000k, doesn't need it either. A full armor set costs 5K, add 3k for runes and 2k for dyes, that's ... 10k. Add 5k for a weapon, 5k for mods and your setup for 20k total.

Yes, I believe solo-farming was hurt. I am sorry the honest and casual solo farmer like your self got hurt by this change. Personally I feel ANet should have tried other methods to counter the farming with bots.

The things dropped in price is only high end rares and runes. Oh btw probably my keyboard was stuck when I wrote 5-00k I mean 50-100k for rares which still unreachable with casual farmin. For runes they already were so cheap. Only sup vigor dropped. AND IT WASNT A NEED. TILL IT EVEN I HAD MAJOR CAUSE 9HP DOESNT WORTHED 20K.

AND PLEASE PLEASE CAN SOMEONE TELL ME WHY ANET HATES BOTES(okay I dont like bots they dont hurt anyone other then gold buyers also terminate the eula)

Destro Maniak · Jul 17, 2007, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

1) In general, prices are down, runes are cheaper, items are cheaper.
2) Income has remained the same.

=> Casual players find it easier to buy their equipment and skills.

ad 2. Casual players do not build invincimonks for the sole purpose of solo farming. Casual players rarely, if ever, solo farm at all, since casual players normally adventure in full sized parties and as has been stated, loot scaling does not affect those.

Never, the casual player never saw 5000k, doesn't need it either. A full armor set costs 5K, add 3k for runes and 2k for dyes, that's ... 10k. Add 5k for a weapon, 5k for mods and your setup for 20k total.

Yes, I believe solo-farming was hurt. I am sorry the honest and casual solo farmer like your self got hurt by this change. Personally I feel ANet should have tried other methods to counter the farming with bots.

The things dropped in price is only high end rares and runes. Oh btw probably my keyboard was stuck when I wrote 5-00k I mean 50-100k for rares which still unreachable with casual farmin. For runes they already were so cheap. Only sup vigor dropped. AND IT WASNT A NEED. TILL IT EVEN I HAD MAJOR CAUSE 9HP DOESNT WORTHED 20K.

AND PLEASE PLEASE CAN SOMEONE TELL ME WHY ANET HATES BOTES(okay I dont like bots they dont hurt anyone other then gold buyers also terminate the eula) I NEVER EVER WAS HURTED BY THEM

Loviatar · Jul 17, 2007, 08:11 PM // 20:11

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destro Maniak

The things dropped in price is only high end rares and runes. Oh btw probably my keyboard was stuck when I wrote 5-00k I mean 50-100k for rares which still unreachable with casual farmin. For runes they already were so cheap. Only sup vigor dropped. AND IT WASNT A NEED. TILL IT EVEN I HAD MAJOR CAUSE 9HP DOESNT WORTHED 20K.

wrong.

runes were not always cheap

early in the game a fully runed warrior could have 150K+ in runes alone

superior absorbtion 100K
minor vigor 15-35k+
superior sword/axe/hammer 50K+
minor strength 5-8 K+
minor tactics 5-6 K +

i had a sup absorb turn ino the most wonderful pile of rare materials you have ever seen and i didnt play for the rest of the day

then came guaranteed rune salvage and the dye trader and the other things that have brought prices down slowly.

loot scaling is only the latest step in many steps and you can bet your farm tere will be more anti hardcore pro casual player changes to come.

i look forward to the changes to come

i dont spend much and it piles up slowly until i see something worth getting for my favorite character which is armor since i dont see weapons/shields much anyway

maybe GWEN will have something nice to get

i have bought set of 15K armor over more thn 2 years and 15 characters which all have only 1.5K armor and the heroes get hand me downs and are happy

my heroes have mny more elites unlocke than i do

reetkever · Jul 17, 2007, 08:15 PM // 20:15

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Originally Posted by the_jos

I'm really not going to agree on that one.
When I started playing GW, there was only Prophecies.
I was playing max-team size and it was hard to get a steady cashflow for my first character. He lived on collectors items and dropped weapons.
My second character did benefit from the collectable drops in storage that my first character did not use. I never farmed in my prophecies period.

Then there was Factions. In Factions, I made gold fast compared to Prophecies. Again with full party size and just playing storyline.
I already adapted to a playing style that each character should make enough gold for maintaining itself through the game.
In that time, I did a little VwK farming on Kephket for the green monk staff and one or two 15K Kurzik armor pieces for my monk.

Then NF came out.
I started a derv and a para there, and by just playing the storyline, questing and collecting every drop, they were both able to get 15K sunspear armor, funded themselfs, though I did use some rare crafting materials from my storage. Again played with full-size groups. They never got to Vabbi in the storyline. This is how 'fast' one made cash.
To give you an idea, when you play all the quests and missions (masters) on starter island, you have made more than enough cash for max armor at the crafter. This is excluding drops.

This way of making gold did NOT change with the introduction of loot scaling.

Yes, but this only works when you have a completely new character which still needs to do all missions. The problem here is that it only goes for Nightfall, and alot of people already DID these missions. Sure, I didn't do all quests, but mosts quests are NOT fun to do, annoying, hard, time-consuming and NOT worth the reward of 300 gold and a bucket of EXP.

Why not just farm some Trolls? Easy, fun, fast and you can do FUN stuff afterwards (I miss doing fun stuff...) Ohh wait, we çan't do it cause A-Net destroyed it. -.-

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

As you can see, there is enough gold in the game for the starting player to accomplish basic objectives (finish the game, get some decent weapons, max armor).
If not, it's the spending that needs attention, not the income

Yes but starting players are not the problem. For starting players, doing the storyline is fun. They often don't care yet about out-of-reach stuff like keys, nice armor, nice weapons, good heroes, tickets for boardwalk, scrolls, experimenting with builds, FoW/UW etc yet.

Players that already beat the game an x-number of times, do. I think my problem is that I used to be a hardcore gamer, and already beat the game on most of my chars. Now that I am a casual gamer, only playing 2 hours a day and (used to) farm for only like 5 minutes, the storyline is boring, most missions are done, and quests are just worthless. What else to do? Lots of stuff can be done in the game. But only for rich people.

GUILD WARS ONLY SUPPORTS PLAYERS WITH CASH.

Sure, poor people can get collector's weapons, collector's armors and play the game, but that's all. After that, there is NOTHING.

You can call me casual or a hardcore farmer or whatever, but the game is just too bloody expensive. 15 gold for 1 ticket. 1,5K for a key, 100K + 20 ecto's for an average weapon (from player), skills that cost 1K each, etc. etc.

I, however WANT to do fun stuff in this game. It's there, and I can do it... If it wasn't for the stupid loot scaling that stops my income. Why does all fun stuff cost hands of cash, and the ways of getting that cash are being nullified? Face it, people want MORE than the basic stuff.

Why can't A-Net just give it to us? They keep nerfing everything. They keep making players more poor... What the hell do you want, A-Net? Do you want your players to have fun? Or do you want your players to work for a week long in order to buy a few Lockpicks? And the sickening part is that A-Net is saying they're IMPROVING the game for casual players. How has the game improved for casual players, exactly?

-trader things that went down in price were already very cheap and obtainable.
-trader things that are still expensive were expensive before.
-Weapons are still 100K + xx ecto
-Bots are alive and kicking. And suddenly, that 1000K for xx euro/dollar sounds very attractive.
-Casual Players STILL can't do anything except to do storyline and live like an underdog: With the cheapest of the cheapest equipment.

As you can see, the scaling didn't help us one bit, it just made fun stuff more out of reach.

yukimura_gw · Jul 17, 2007, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Seems like loot scaling favor some scammer :
http://myworld.ebay.ca/rickhavekost/

He seems to sell a lot of his programs.
(please don't buy them)
Look how many he sold before march 07 and
after march 07. It's CRAZY!

New gold seller account :
http://myworld.ebay.ca/gwgoldsell1982/

Money seems to sell fast and at high price.

I remember that ebay was overflooded with
gold seller. Did they sold all their money or
they are gone? I think it seems to sell nicely
lately.

An account with 1 000 platinum could easily
make 60$ US.

Before that, the market was overflooded
with gold seller and was starting at 19.99$.
Gold was hard to sell before.

If the target was gold seller ...... ... ... ...

Molock · Jul 17, 2007, 08:56 PM // 20:56

I laugh at the people who are complaining about been banned, lol

reddswitch · Jul 17, 2007, 10:54 PM // 22:54

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Originally Posted by the_jos

...
Older characters support newer ones.
...

Yay.........

Martin Alvito · Jul 17, 2007, 11:22 PM // 23:22

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

If you do every thing once, every mission once, vanquish every area once, capture every elite once, etc, etc..., you'll have plenty of gold, way more then you actually need and without farming.

You've demonstrated quite clearly here in this response to another poster that you don't understand my basic argument. Most players do not play the game in the manner that you suggest here. They have multiple characters, many of which get halfway through a campaign and are abandoned for a while, then perhaps picked up later. They play a few hours per week in a haphazard fashion. They don't understand basic principles of proper play that you and I take for granted. There's no way that they'll acquire the cash for capping every elite skill; there's no way that they'll vanquish areas, as they don't know enough about builds and game mechanics in order to do so, and those of us who are more dedicated are generally uninterested in teaching their 10001st player how to play the game properly after two and a half years.

There's a lot more of them out there than us. Their purchases of campaigns and expansion packs pays for the servers that WE disproportionately use. So we'd better care about how ANet treats these folks, since we're the ones always screaming for server upgrades and the like.

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Woohoo, from the posters here that complain about their source of income being nerfed I got the impression that they were not living on the edge, or in anyway compare to those with 'lower wages'. In fact they would have to be considered as rich and with the highest wages. 500 plat/week is not average, it is waaaaay above average. So, don't pretend to be just some poor, hard worker.

Look, this ain't about me. I made something upwards of 3 million gold in the first few weeks of Hard Mode - its introduction was a phenomenal income boon for me and financed a significant proportion of the shiny loot over there in the avatar.

The point here is that immediately above - quite honestly, the noobs do pay for the game servers we use. ANet has been following the absolute worst possible policy for some time now: catering to the hardcore PvE-er and dumbing down PvP. With loot scaling the botters, serious farmers and serious traders win. Skill "balances" since Nightfall have created PvP environments dominated (at least in number of teams out there) by mindless cookie-cutter builds that take comparatively little skill to play.

The net result of all of this is that the botters get richer, the already rich get richer, the casual PvE-er that farms occasionally gets alienated, and the best PvP players are long gone from this game. How does this help ANet maintain interest in this game long enough to successfully get them to the release of GW2? The casual players are the core of the revenue stream; the best PvP players are necessary to compelling the continuous innovation that makes a PvP community grow and thrive.

The devs are engaging in bad business strategy. If you don't care, you should, since it's their income stream that pays for the servers, and that pays for the development of the sequel. If they run short on cash, they'll be forced to cut corners in development, and you'll get an inferior product.

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

The seller is simply asking more then the buyer would be willing to give for the item. If the product is too expensive to produce, he has chosen the wrong product to produce. The market changed, that is unfortunate for those caught in those changes, but they will adapt and find more lucrative products.

You fail at economics. The point is that low demand, low supply items (your 3-10k low end req 9 gold, most greens) are unsaleable when you consider the opportunity cost of the time that must be invested to sell them. Coincidentally, these happen to be exactly the kind of drops that the casual player gets. The casual player gets an uncommon req 9 skin, goes off to sell it, cannot do so and gets frustrated. The reason the casual player cannot sell the item is not because there is no market for these drops, but rather because the inefficient trading system does not make it feasible for these players to communicate with would-be buyers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Half of the cost comes back from the spoils when capturing the elite. The other half - and more - can be earned while questing and accumulating xp for the next skill point.

Further proof that you're not paying attention. You don't get your 1 plat back when you cap a skill. You get XP, but that exists in abundance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Wait, in an RPG you gradually accumulate skills and abilities and equipment. In an RPG you don't spend X cash upfront to pop out the character of choice, ready to rock.

The practice of dropping powerful gear on a low-level character to speed up the early phases of the game was called "twinking" in Diablo 2. I hear that's an RPG as well. If you're running around with substandard gear at the time you start your character, you're wasting time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

I don't really farm, I've made less then 20k with farming, it's so boring. But I still have 90% of the skills of my primary and original) secondary profession, as well as a wide selection of skills for my heroes.

Which gets back to my original point: most casual players have a bunch of characters. Further, you support my basic point. You play a lot, you don't farm, and all you can realistically support is one character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Again, this is your problem, you want to setup a character, fully equipped and with a wide skill selection, before even starting the real game. A normal player builds a character and will accumulate the wealth to do so during normal gameplay.

Inefficient waste of time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

This is not true, it is quite the opposite. With lower prices the new player can do more with the loot they get and will get more easily into the game, and reach the endgame with better equipment then I could two years ago. And without farming.

From merching whites? Bah.

If you want to argue that the inscription system aided the casual player by reducing prices on previously expensive gear, I'd agree. But loot scaling? No way. The only way to make money farming now is to be good at the game, and playing through the game "normally" isn't going to provide any more than a subsistence living in-game. Never has.

Amy Awien · Jul 18, 2007, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destro Maniak

AND PLEASE PLEASE CAN SOMEONE TELL ME WHY ANET HATES BOTES(okay I dont like bots they dont hurt anyone other then gold buyers also terminate the eula)

My guesses:

1) The extra gold inflates prices in the game, making the game more difficult for the honest, casual players
2) The bot-operators make real-life money by abusing resources (servers and bandwith) that ANet pays for (with the money we spend on the games). Reducing bots will free resources for use by real players (less lag and dropped connections) or reduce operating costs for ANet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

... Now that I am a casual gamer, only playing 2 hours a day and (used to) farm for only like 5 minutes, ...

Casual Gamers play 2 hours a day on their peak and thus finishing the campaign(s) takes them a lot longer. You have basically done everything there is to do in the game and are left with chasing the more expensive titles and goals.

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Sure, poor people can get collector's weapons, collector's armors and play the game, but that's all. After that, there is NOTHING.

Collector gear is more convenient to get then shopping for equivalent greens and golds on the market. But that aside, after completing a campaign there are various things to do - besides PvP - that do not cost a whole lot of gold, elite skills, cartography, vanquishing etc .... Most casual gamers will have their hands full at those. You might have done all these things already, but, well, how many hours do yo uhave on your account?

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I, however WANT to do fun stuff in this game. It's there, and I can do it... If it wasn't for the stupid loot scaling that stops my income.

Perhaps the costs of these more expensive hobbies/goals/titles can be brought down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

You've demonstrated quite clearly here in this response to another poster that you don't understand my basic argument.

I've stated there that there's so much to do, that will earn the player some cash as well, that the casual player will not be doing something over and over again, for cash. How does that demonstrate my misunderstanding of your argument?

Quote:

Most players do not play the game in the manner that you suggest here. They have multiple characters, many of which get halfway through a campaign and are abandoned for a while, then perhaps picked up later. They play a few hours per week in a haphazard fashion. They don't understand basic principles of proper play that you and I take for granted. There's no way that they'll acquire the cash for capping every elite skill; there's no way that they'll vanquish areas, as they don't know enough about builds and game mechanics in order to do so, and those of us who are more dedicated are generally uninterested in teaching their 10001st player how to play the game properly after two and a half years.

And they won't need more cash then their haphazrd playing style requires. They will not hunt for elite skills, nor open chests for a title. These characters that get halfway through campaigns receive enough cash from loot and bounties that they can afford the gear and skills they need at that point of the campaigns they are in.

Those haphazardly played characters travel and do missions in full groups, they get the same cash as before the loot scaling, but they will benefit from the increased value of the gold they receive.

Quote:

There's a lot more of them out there than us. Their purchases of campaigns and expansion packs pays for the servers that WE disproportionately use. So we'd better care about how ANet treats these folks, since we're the ones always screaming for server upgrades and the like.

It is not those casual players that are hurt, but only those who need to solo-farm to afford their titles, or whatever they want, that are hurt by loot-scaling.

They, imo, are not hurt because the loot has remained the same for them. They benefit because prices are reduced and prices are reduced because lootscaling (for solofarming) changed the ratio of drops between 'gold items' (and similar) and cash.

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The net result of all of this is that the botters get richer, the already rich get richer, ...

How so?

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You fail at economics. The point is that low demand, low supply items (your 3-10k low end req 9 gold, most greens) are unsaleable when you consider the opportunity cost of the time that must be invested to sell them.

Actually, I don't fail at economics, it's the player who fails to recognize that the product they offer is unwanted who fails at it. And then they complain about people not wanting to buy their product for what they think it's worth.

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The reason the casual player cannot sell the item is not because there is no market for these drops, but rather because the inefficient trading system does not make it feasible for these players to communicate with would-be buyers.

Yes, it's inefficient, and I would prefer a better working system as well. A better trading system wouldn't mean that the unwanted item will get sold, for a high price though.

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Further proof that you're not paying attention. You don't get your 1 plat back when you cap a skill. You get XP, but that exists in abundance.

Well, well, try capping elite skills yourself and pay attention when you do. You see, you normally fight your way to the boss that has the skill you want to cap and that will result in drops, frequently enough for your next signet.

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The practice of dropping powerful gear on a low-level character to speed up the early phases of the game was called "twinking" in Diablo 2.

You can call it what you will, but it's a practice that's not 'In Character' and strictly speaking it can not be considered as Role-Playing and a Role Playing Game is not required to cater to this need.

Diablo is hardly a role-playing game. It never managed to capture my imagination.

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If you're running around with substandard gear at the time you start your character, you're wasting time.

Actually, you'd playing the game as it's supposed to be played, as a role playing game, with a character that lives through adventures and completes quests.

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Which gets back to my original point: most casual players have a bunch of characters. Further, you support my basic point. You play a lot, you don't farm, and all you can realistically support is one character.

It doesn't matter how many characters I would make, there's only so much time to play anyway, and it doesn't matter if you get 1k in drops on one or the other. But I have more then one character, equipped them, and their heroes at least in part with cash my first character made.

It doesn't really matter, you can buy gear for one character with cash from another, and the income from that one can help the next. But if you setup characters and then abandon them, yes, you waste cash.

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Inefficient waste of time.

Right, you've just disqualified yourself and you arguments. All that matters to you is you, and your view, anything else is non-existant, or inefficient. You can play the game as you see fit, but you are hardly a reference.

ANet was wise enough to improve the gameplay for the casual players that do, as you pointed out yourself, make out the bulk of the playerbase, and their revenues. If they'd listen to you, they'd be out of business.

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From merching whites? Bah.

What a surprise. You've been trying to argue that one cannot play the game without solo-farming. You are wrong, no matter how you ignore the facts. It's your special type of pay

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The only way to make money farming now is to be good at the game, and playing through the game "normally" isn't going to provide any more than a subsistence living in-game. Never has.

It's entirely what you make of it. Maxed gear - and even some vanity items - on multiple characters and their heroes is achievable without solo farming. If you can't make that, it's how you spend your cash.

Iuris · Jul 18, 2007, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Khem, if I may point out one interesting thing about the necessity of grind:

The Nightfall storyline alone (just primary quest reqards and full mission rewards, no side quests, no drops, nothing else) is worth 14500 gold. That's enough for a full set of max armor if you don't pick up even a single drop and don't do even a single secondary quest.

Add in the tresures (20-30k per character) and even a few drops per quest, and you're at enough for full gear, possibly even the 15k armor.

TheLichMonky · Jul 18, 2007, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Looktscalling w/e that is /sarcasm

the_jos · Jul 18, 2007, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Quote:

You fail at economics. The point is that low demand, low supply items (your 3-10k low end req 9 gold, most greens) are unsaleable when you consider the opportunity cost of the time that must be invested to sell them. Coincidentally, these happen to be exactly the kind of drops that the casual player gets. The casual player gets an uncommon req 9 skin, goes off to sell it, cannot do so and gets frustrated. The reason the casual player cannot sell the item is not because there is no market for these drops, but rather because the inefficient trading system does not make it feasible for these players to communicate with would-be buyers.

I very much agree on that one.
I have yet to merch a green, but with full inventories, this will happen sooner or later. Gold items go to merchant or salvage for mods, but not in player market. Argument below:

Quote:

Actually, I don't fail at economics, it's the player who fails to recognize that the product they offer is unwanted who fails at it. And then they complain about people not wanting to buy their product for what they think it's worth.

Don't agree on that one.
It's the 'cost' of selling the item compared to the supposed value.
It's just not worth trying to sell a 2K item for 1 hour when you can gain that 2K by playing for less than an hour.
I have had some items that would have been worth between 5K and 10K and went straight to merch because I am not willing to spend time on selling.
I'd rather play the game than stand in town trying to sell an item.

I think for this entry market, things got worse.
However, since it's a 'nice to have' and not a 'must have' market, it does not affect the starting player.

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Half of the cost comes back from the spoils when capturing the elite. The other half - and more - can be earned while questing and accumulating xp for the next skill point.

Working on my last elite title, I can tell you this is not true.
I have the skill-points from regular gameplay, so no need to accumulate those. Capping netted me about 1/4 of the cash spend and most of that was in Tyria (where you have to zone or walk for quite a while for caps).

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I think my problem is that I used to be a hardcore gamer.

With about 2 hours/day, which is about 2/3 of my game time, there are plenty of things to do. But when those involve large amounts of gold, or have to do with solo-playing (those seem to go hand in hand), I do understand the pain.
One of the more important reasons I still play is because of the fun I have in PuGs and guild. Without that, GW would probably have 'died' several months ago.

reetkever · Jul 18, 2007, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

My guesses:

1) The extra gold inflates prices in the game, making the game more difficult for the honest, casual players
2) The bot-operators make real-life money by abusing resources (servers and bandwith) that ANet pays for (with the money we spend on the games). Reducing bots will free resources for use by real players (less lag and dropped connections) or reduce operating costs for ANet.

Casual Gamers play 2 hours a day on their peak and thus finishing the campaign(s) takes them a lot longer. You have basically done everything there is to do in the game and are left with chasing the more expensive titles and goals.

Yes, there is chest running, festival things like 9-rings, gambling, experimenting with builds, pimping characters, trying out farm builds, trying out dye colours, UW/FoW clearing, collecting stuff like weapons/mini-pets, working on titles. These, however all cost too much cash (at least, for me).

My question is, why can't A-Net just make it easier to do these things?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Collector gear is more convenient to get then shopping for equivalent greens and golds on the market. But that aside, after completing a campaign there are various things to do - besides PvP - that do not cost a whole lot of gold, elite skills, cartography, vanquishing etc .... Most casual gamers will have their hands full at those. You might have done all these things already, but, well, how many hours do yo uhave on your account?

Well let's say I want a good sword. The green would be cheaper than to get the collector sword, +30 HP mod (for like 25K), and zealous/vamp/sundering.

Elite Skills I tried, I'm stuck at cash now cause I can't buy cap sigs anymore. cartography... not enough time to explore large areas like Snake Dance. Vanquishing I tried, but is too hard for me, cause my heroes don't have the proper equipment (again, not enough cash for this, and the white/blue drops don't seem to do it).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Perhaps the costs of these more expensive hobbies/goals/titles can be brought down.

Exactly. Let monsters be farmed, make skill times and golds drop more often so the economy gets flooded with them. That way, alot of players can get it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

I've stated there that there's so much to do, that will earn the player some cash as well, that the casual player will not be doing something over and over again, for cash. How does that demonstrate my misunderstanding of your argument?

Actually, there's just missions and quests to do. The rest costs cash. After doing the missions and quests, or being bored by them, there's no other choice to grind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

And they won't need more cash then their haphazrd playing style requires. They will not hunt for elite skills, nor open chests for a title. These characters that get halfway through campaigns receive enough cash from loot and bounties that they can afford the gear and skills they need at that point of the campaigns they are in.

Those haphazardly played characters travel and do missions in full groups, they get the same cash as before the loot scaling, but they will benefit from the increased value of the gold they receive.

There's a difference between needing and wanting. When just playing the game, I also wanted to open chests, I also wanted to dye armor. Why? It's not needed, but it's fun to do beside the storyline. Why is it that things such as these require so much cash?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

It is not those casual players that are hurt, but only those who need to solo-farm to afford their titles, or whatever they want, that are hurt by loot-scaling.

They, imo, are not hurt because the loot has remained the same for them. They benefit because prices are reduced and prices are reduced because lootscaling (for solofarming) changed the ratio of drops between 'gold items' (and similar) and cash.

This is again your view of a casual player. My view of the casual player is one that doesn't spend all his time farming, but STILL does a run or 2 to get some minor cash and then can do fun stuff, too.

If your view is correct, I was a hardcore farmer from day 1. (When I bought Guild Wars, me and my friend (who had the game longer) did a quest in pre-searing together. He found a black dye and told me the price. I wanted it so bad, that I killed stuff in pre-searing for hours, just to get the 4K (he only charged 4K instead of 8 :P)

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

How so?

-Botters still make the same amount of cash
-Stuff stays expensive and people still want to buy
=More people will now buy gold from bots, cause they can't make cash ingame anymore, and prices still stay sky-high. So bots can increase their prices.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Actually, I don't fail at economics, it's the player who fails to recognize that the product they offer is unwanted who fails at it. And then they complain about people not wanting to buy their product for what they think it's worth.

There's always someone who wants to buy that weapon off you for the price it's worth. It's just hard to find between all the poor people that can't afford anything these days.

A-Net thought they could force players to drop their prices to like 500 gold, so that the poor players could buy, too. Instead, prices stay high, rich people keep buying, and poor players stay poor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Yes, it's inefficient, and I would prefer a better working system as well. A better trading system wouldn't mean that the unwanted item will get sold, for a high price though.

As I said before, there's always a buyer out there. The problem is, you'll never see him. Especially with the crappy trade system we have now,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Well, well, try capping elite skills yourself and pay attention when you do. You see, you normally fight your way to the boss that has the skill you want to cap and that will result in drops, frequently enough for your next signet.

I usually got 70 gold worth of drops (well usually only 1 drop, and 100 gold divided by 8 people) when capping elite skills. I never got a green in my life when wanting to cap a skill, either. Sometimes I hit the jackpot and got 500 gold, but this still isn't enough.

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Actually, you'd playing the game as it's supposed to be played, as a role playing game, with a character that lives through adventures and completes quests.

If the game is supposed to be played like that, why do monsters still drop loot other than collectibles? Why do more armor types exist? Why do stuff like ecto's exist?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Right, you've just disqualified yourself and you arguments. All that matters to you is you, and your view, anything else is non-existant, or inefficient. You can play the game as you see fit, but you are hardly a reference.

Doesn't the same go for you? You seem to think that casual gamers have no free will, and are happy to live on collector's stuff. You also seem to think that the casual gamers get tons of cash from doing missions and quests. This is, however, all relative. In game, I hear nothing but 'darn I need cash', 'why is everything so expensive', 'How can I make cash?', 'Can I still farm Trolls?' etc etc. And no, these are NOT Warriors with black-dyed FoW armors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

What a surprise. You've been trying to argue that one cannot play the game without solo-farming. You are wrong, no matter how you ignore the facts. It's your special type of pay

Everyone can play the game without solo-farming, solo-farming just makes it FUN, though. And isn't a game about fun? In A-Net's eyes, it sure isn't. It appears to me that they want to keep us 'interested' by letting us grind more and more for the fun stuff, so that we play their game long enough for the new chapter to arrive, which we will then buy cause we're sick of being bored of grinding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

It's entirely what you make of it. Maxed gear - and even some vanity items - on multiple characters and their heroes is achievable without solo farming. If you can't make that, it's how you spend your cash.

This would be true everyone got the exact same drops and exact same income. This isn't true. Maybe you're lucky and can buy lots of vanity items, I can't even buy a cap sig atm. I already did most missions in my life-less time, and have no ways of making quick and alot of cash now, which is needed alot in this game.

yukimura_gw · Jul 18, 2007, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molock

I laugh at the people who are complaining about been banned, lol

Yeah. And they blame the seller.

A-Net got a warning about 3rd party software on
the GW start screen.

Found another bot seller :
http://myworld.ebay.ca/burton31003

Look how many he sold after march.

Loot scaling seems to favor gold and
bot seller a lot!!!

yukimura_gw · Jul 18, 2007, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Found this guide for gold seller :
http://myworld.ebay.ca/ggjfpg

Most of his sale are after March 07.

I know why some people are pro-loot scaling
now.

Snow Bunny · Jul 18, 2007, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Mmm...you can get pretty much any weapon these days for cheap. And there are definetely buyers out there, you just have to have A LOT of patience.

I'm not talking about WTS spam.

Guru's auction system is a complete godsend. <3 Guru auctions.
Put your item up, maybe with a picture, let a week go by, check your email.
I can sit in Kamadan all day advertising my Fiery Blade Axe for 15k, or I can go on guru, wait 2 weeks, and sell it for 60k.

A better solution perhaps would be to eliminate the inscription system. That has truly devalued the market.

the_jos · Jul 18, 2007, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Quote:

Yes, there is chest running, festival things like 9-rings, gambling, experimenting with builds, pimping characters, trying out farm builds, trying out dye colours, UW/FoW clearing, collecting stuff like weapons/mini-pets, working on titles. These, however all cost too much cash (at least, for me).

Let's see:
Gold sink, gold sink, gold sink, possible gold sink, market, possible gold sink, market, payable with full team, market and gold sink.
Market = depending on supply and demand.
Gold sink = designed to remove cash from game economy (those did not change with loot scaling).

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Vanquishing I tried, but is too hard for me, cause my heroes don't have the proper equipment

When equipment = skills, I might agree. I think you mean items, which do not make the difference.

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Let monsters be farmed, make skill times and golds drop more often so the economy gets flooded with them.

Agree on normal skill tomes. Don't care about gold items (will merch or salvage them anyway).

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In game, I hear nothing but 'darn I need cash', 'why is everything so expensive', 'How can I make cash?', 'Can I still farm Trolls?'

We play a different game. I never hear that in game, only on forums like guru.
And those 'complaints' are there as long as I play GW, only then people would just say 'STFU and go farm'.

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A better solution perhaps would be to eliminate the inscription system. That has truly devalued the market.

The devaluation was not a problem for the average player.
I would prefer a better ingame trading system compared to removing inscriptions.